Manti 2007 Team T-shirt

Here is a picture of our Manti 2007 team T-shirt. The shirt itself is going to be bright yellow and will have the same art on both sides. Available sizes are small through XL. We aren’t sure about the price yet, but it will probably be somewhere between $12-$15. If we have to mail it to you, we will add postage to the cost of the shirt. If you would be interested in purchasing one, please contact us through our ministry web site.

For the sake of those without a Book of Mormon, 2nd Nephi 25:23 states, “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

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  1. Nice Logos, Keith, but I’m having a hard time seeing how the Nephi passage contradicts the John Passage.Nephi states that he “labors diligently” to persuade his children (descendents) to believe in Christ (and thereby be reconciled to God) because he knows that it is by “grace that we are saved–(even) after all we can do.”Nephi’s point is that he “labors diligently” to teach his children of the grace that comes through Christ because he knows that his labors will not be in vain, because if he is successful in persuading his children to believe in Christ’s grace, they will be saved. Plainly, neither Nephi nor his children are ultimately saved because of Nephi’s diligent labors; rather, salvation comes by accepting Christ, the center and motive of Nephi’s labors. His labors are to spread the gospel message to his posterity. Any Evangelical worthy of Paul shouldn’t have an iota of a problem with Nephi’s words, IMO.Nephi’s use of the present tense–“we are saved”–seems additionally problematic to your T-shirt message because this clearly implies that Nephi believed in a reconciliation that was effectual 600 years before Jesus was born–long before Jesus even uttered those profound words, “It is finished.” (Nephi’s father, Lehi, explains this theology in the terms that the Lord’s Spirit is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and Christ’s atonement was therefore immediately applicable to those living long before Christ’s birth. 2 Nephi 2:4) Clearly, both these passages in 2 Nephi refer to the Holy Spirit’s immediate justification to the human soul of Christ’s eternal salvation of humankind. I really don’t see how this can be made to contradict a belief that Christ’s act of ATONEment for all humanity throughout all history did not indeed happen “AT ONEc.” If you want to honestly draw the distinction between Evangelical and Mormon belief in Christ’s reconciliation than I think you should site any of the numerous cases in the BoM where it talks of the sufficiency (or insufficiency) of Christ’s blood to cover the sins of those at the judgement bar before God’s glory. (Like Moroni 10:32-33, as you pointed out to me two years ago, Keith.)(How Nephi’s doings 2600 years ago had anything to do with what Jesus did 2000 years ago in his act of human reconciliation, well, I must say, Keith, that your reading much more into this scripture than I ever have (or ever will). I really think you should pick another set of scriptures for comparison.) As Evangelical Protestants believe, those who have accepted and confessed Christ as Savior will be cleansed of their sins regardless of their repentence and commitment to Christ’s righteousness. In contrast, Mormon’s believe that in the case of one’s personal sins, at that last day Christ’s grace will be sufficient only for those whom He finds faithful to his righteousness and suffering. Mere faith in His name and His atoning acts will not be enough. That kind of basic faith will merit our justification before God in Christ, but not our sanctification in Christ–our ticket (gift) to God’s glory. But I and every informed Mormon would point out that the insufficiency of Christ’s blood to cover an individual at the judgment seat does not in any way suggest that Christ’s atonement wasn’t “done” or “finished” right at the point that Jesus gave his spirit back to God. Jesus’ teachings plainly state that some people are simply going to choose the unrighteous path–and in the last day be cast out forever because of it. (Romans 2:4-11–a most candid warning that was written to baptized, confessed Christians.)Sincerely,Dale Caswell

  2. Dale, Thanks for dropping by! I look forward to seeing you again in Manti. I’ll respond to your comments one point at a time.Dale said, “I’m having a hard time seeing how the Nephi passage contradicts the John Passage… Nephi’s point is that he “labors diligently” to teach his children of the grace that comes through Christ because he knows that his labors will not be in vain, because if he is successful in persuading his children to believe in Christ’s grace, they will be saved.”…after all you can do. They will be saved after all they can do. Emphasis on the words “after” and “do.” While you quote the last phrase of 2nd Nephi 25:23 in your second paragraph, you didn’t mention it in your commentary in the next paragraph. Being saved only occurs after, not before.Dale said, “Plainly, neither Nephi nor his children are ultimately saved because of Nephi’s diligent labors; rather, salvation comes by accepting Christ, the center and motive of Nephi’s labors. His labors are to spread the gospel message to his posterity. Any Evangelical worthy of Paul shouldn’t have an iota of a problem with Nephi’s words, IMO.”You’ve missed the point of Nephi’s last phrase again. In fact, I would say just the opposite about Evangelicals and Paul. Any Evangelical who understands Paul is going to have tremendous problems with Nephi. I wish you could hear it, but every single time I quote 2nd Nephi 25:23 in an Evangelical church, the audience groans. There is a world of difference between being saved by grace and being saved by grace after all you can do.Dale said, “Nephi’s use of the present tense—‘we are saved’–seems additionally problematic to your T-shirt message because this clearly implies that Nephi believed in a reconciliation that was effectual 600 years before Jesus was born–long before Jesus even uttered those profound words, ‘It is finished.’”You are taking this to mean, “we have been saved” rather than the obvious meaning, “we will be saved.” If we are in a driver’s Ed class and our teacher tells us, “you are saved by your seat-belt,” the obvious meaning is that seat-belts save us in the future event of an accident. If Nephi meant that we are saved (past tense), he would have said, “We are saved by grace after all we did.” The two words “after” and “do” point forwards, not back.Dale said, “Clearly, both these passages in 2 Nephi refer to the Holy Spirit’s immediate justification to the human soul of Christ’s eternal salvation of humankind. I really don’t see how this can be made to contradict a belief that Christ’s act of ATONEment for all humanity throughout all history did not indeed happen “AT ONEc.” Please define salvation. Are you referring to general salvation or exaltation?Dale said, “If you want to honestly draw the distinction between Evangelical and Mormon belief in Christ’s reconciliation than I think you should site any of the numerous cases in the BoM where it talks of the sufficiency (or insufficiency) of Christ’s blood to cover the sins of those at the judgement bar before God’s glory. (Like Moroni 10:32-33, as you pointed out to me two years ago, Keith.)”You’ve got me confused a bit here, Dale. Are you saying that Moroni 10:23 teaches that the blood of Christ is insufficient to cover sins, but that 2nd Nephi 25:23 teaches that it is sufficient? If so, wouldn’t that be a contradiction?Dale said, “As Evangelical Protestants believe, those who have accepted and confessed Christ as Savior will be cleansed of their sins regardless of their repentence and commitment to Christ’s righteousness.”That all depends on how you define repentance. Could you please define that for us?Dale said, “In contrast, Mormon’s believe that in the case of one’s personal sins, at that last day Christ’s grace will be sufficient only for those whom He finds faithful to his righteousness and suffering.That is exactly how I take 2nd Nephi 25:23. The grace becomes effective after all you do. I have a 1979 paperback Gospel Principles book that states on page 93, “As a result of repentance, the atonement of Jesus Christ becomes effective in our lives, and our sins are forgiven.” The three key words in this sentence are “As a result.” That kind of sounds like “after all you can do.”Dale said, “But I and every informed Mormon would point out that the insufficiency of Christ’s blood to cover an individual at the judgment seat does not in any way suggest that Christ’s atonement wasn’t “done” or “finished” right at the point that Jesus gave his spirit back to God.I don’t know how you can see it any other way, Dale. You are going to have to help me out on this one. The point of the T-Shirt is that Mormonism teaches that forgiveness of sins is dependant on what you have to do. In Christianity, forgiveness is already done. We either accept God’s forgiveness or we reject it.

  3. Hey that shirt looks cool Keith! I’m looking foward to seeing you again in Manti. Shaun Wagner, myself and at least on other person will comming up in June from San Diego for the second week. Talk SoonMark Shreves

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